parenting styles permissive

{ music } (cole) well hey, bryan thanks for agreeing to be a featured speaker at the symposium this year. it was really something else. and i gotta tell you as i walked out of the room i turned around and checked out the crowd, (bryan) and turned into salt, (cole) there was this look of excitement and panic and blown away. everything in between because you painted such an interesting sort of perspective on, i won't call it citizen journalism, but under the current there was this notion of

the user as the center of this whole new web world. and i just think it was the right message to sort of start the afternoon with and i want to thank you for coming and doing that. (bryan) well good, i thought you were gonna say people were afraid because you were leaving. (cole) oh no, no, no, no, no. we're behind the scene guys here. (bryan) as you can tell. (cole) but again where do you think all this is headed? the thing that i think was most interesting, one of the things, was the whole mobile technologies thing you touched on and how it accelerates the ability to contribute change and alter some of the things that are going on in this web 2.0 space. (bryan) yeah, it does. i'd say that there

are a few things going on. i'm trying to find a few of my phones. here let me get this one. there's a whole bunch of angles. one is a privacy angle. and this is one that came up a few times. i had a slide on it if you saw it today. it was problems with web 2.0 and i skipped it because i ran out of time. the privacy angle is really, really interesting we don't really have a good sense of privacy anymore. were you part of the conversation last night when we were talking about this? (cole) yes! (bryan) this was before we started talking about battlestar galatica that's when the conversation really improved i think. but our sense of privacy we worry about students on

myspace or on facebook disclosing too much. and i think in many ways the teenagers have a much better idea of privacy than adults do. we talk as if there is such a thing as privacy. the ceo of oracle said, privacy is dead. get over it in public in 2000. we think about things like, i have a [ inaudible ], which you were there it was at the end of my talk at the [inaudible]. you asked me how many adults protest their grocery store for targeting purchases based on their card and coupons printed according to your purchases. if i know what you're purchasing for a year,

i know a lot about you. this was something you probably wouldn't want me to know. (jim) which is why i advocate exchanging those cards between people. we'll use them once and then change them up. (bryan) that's the first time i heard anybody say that. i do know a few people who only buy cash. and they're like cranks, survivalists the majority of them. do you protest surveillance cameras? no, nobody does. they don't prevent crime. they move it around. (jim) no, it's interesting, but where i shop there is a camera at the end of each aisle. and i'm assuming they're telling us that cameras there in case anybody tries to reach into the till. but you have to

imagine that. (bryan) wait, not the end of each merchandise aisle, but each... (jim) at the end of each checkout area. so they can potentially could have my picture. they know my profile from my shopping cart. and they have my credit card information and now they have my, (cole) and presumably your pin number because they got the camera dialed right in on the keypad. (bryan) so let me know when there's a march against that. but amazon, my casual browsing informs their business model. netflix, i mean over and over again, our privacy is a thing of the past. i was talking to somebody before, these things, that's all

web based. that's not very mobile really. that's internet based. i mean if ryan and i are worried about you, one of the things that we can do is i could take my phone, give him a call, put my phone under your office desk or under your carseat and then we'll go to ryan's and we'll just listen. because we've had a little bug planted on you for free. this i will show you from the british press in 2001. and the british press of course was on the sex scandal which is different thing, but it works that way too. and these are, this is nothing in terms of world phones. this little guy. this little camera. remember when i showed that huygens probe? the cassini probe that it came from

has a camera that is this powerful. and this is unremarkable. if i go to kenya i'll get a better phone for less money. we haven't begun to worry about this. have you seen any of the youtube videos that are shot by students in classrooms of their teachers? (jim) yep, freaking out and throwing things. (bryan) i mean haven't begun to think about this. (cole) so now you look at our data at penn state, now what was interesting is lee this morning shared some numbers about mp3 ownership and device ownership, and we were higher consistently on all of those things here at penn state. mp3 ownership

is eighty percent on our campus. (bryan) why do you think that is? (cole) maybe just the targeted demographic (bryan) what about that do you think? do you have you have a high proportion for science majors and people interested in fields that might have them? (jim) no, i don't think so. i mean we are known for our engineering programs, but i think it's across the board if you break it down by discipline it's across the board. (cole) i think if you look at the eighteen to twenty-two year old demographic in cell phone usage. we just got our data back and it's at ninety-three percent. you know a lot of people assume it's at a hundred percent, but ninety-three percent ownership of mobile phone devices on our campus.

(bryan) is that undergrad or undergrad and grad? (cole) that was i think represented sample of all students. so that would be undergrad and grad. our undergraduate population is eighty thousand. (bryan)i was just thinking of different ways that you would rely on a cell phone and who that could be. and the grad student of course could be, i know i was talking to [ inaudible ] this morning where a lot of the undergrads are traditional age, so they're more likely to have cell phones, but the older you get the less likely you are for different reasons. i'm not surprised that penetration now. how many campuses are equipped to push content out to cell phones? almost none. (cole) that's it and that's sort of

the question is, i'm sitting in front of a class lecturing and how do i tap into this great device that these kids sitting in my classroom really dying to use? (bryan) have you used the clicker? (cole) yeah, we have clicker investigations. but you know what's crazy we ask the students about would they use their cell phone as a clicker and they say yes and then they say, wait a second, i have to pay for that text message. but then you add up the cost of a clicker response and it ends up being cheaper over a semester than it would cost you buy the clicker itself. (bryan) the real cost is at your end. the infrastructure end, configuring that and that may not be possible for some folks.

because they're so walled off. i've talked to a few colleges where they're looking into that. and it became prohibitive. now those are all smaller colleges. you guys might have the... (jim) well we did do an investigation here of actually that very question. could our automated call recognition and stuff handle that? could the back end handle that? could we plug into the voip infrastructure that we're developing? and the costs were prohibitive in terms of making sure that we know that this is professor so and so's section in this particular room that's voting on this particular question. and that

cost started to become prohibitive. (bryan) so then you had ten dollar ers's and it's a lot easier. (cole) but then you have to start to wonder about things like twitter. i know that like it was great in your talk that you said that somebody said something along the lines of, i missed the old days of twitter. you know six weeks ago. and i think a lot of us feel that way. because it's slow. but there's a perfect way of using like you were saying today, web 2.0 makes this stuff cheaper and easier and the ability to make it happen is literally at your fingertips. now with your cell phone you don't have to develop potentially this massive infrastructure to support a twitter stream of students who are all friends to this one class. let's call it

instructional systems 451 is the twitter account and all the students are friends. (bryan) why should i use my computer to flickr? i should be able to phone in my images. well you can. there is the architecture for that now. it's a pain for most phones. and a lot of americans deliberately don't buy photo phones or they don't have a good internet connection from that. i mean, that's lame, it would save time. where you think about... do you do digital storytelling? we had a summit meeting with the berkley group in august of last year. it was really interesting. and the brits who were attending the meeting attacked the

berkley guys by saying, why are you still teaching final cut? this is a waste of time. get a cell phone. and this is easier. you can capture the stuff. it's good enough for what you're doing and then let's look at ebbing from that. so you can just save time and money. and the berkley's were like, cell phones do that? i'm exaggerating. but they were really surprised because that's not part of their life at all. and that's not part of experience. and they're so comfortable with it. that division is stark. and i think it's gonna take awhile before we get past it. and it might be a deep seated division. like the power outlets between us and europe.

(jim) i think part of it is the way lined calls, you know, your typical pots phone were metered in britain and most of europe where it's per minute type calls and so the adoption of mobile technology happened a lot quicker there because you could get around that. (bryan) it was cheaper. well that's true. there are a lot of reasons. there are books on this. [ inaudible ] and one of the reasons is cost. and for other [ inaudible ] if you look at eastern europe or if you looked at north africa

land lines are still in their infancy or [inaudible] and it's just cheaper if you just roll out a cell phone network and go past that. you see a lot of that in africa. you see a lot of that in asia. and in the us our landlines are good enough. now there's a similar reason that has to do with laptops. i didn't see many in my talk today. i was kind of surprised. (cole) i was surprised in lee's talk this morning there were a lot more people with their laptops out and actively running. (jim) i think it was cause of lunch. (cole) the tables were crowded. (bryan) but we have so many more laptops and desktops with [ inaudible ] access to it. that is why a lot of the countries where adoption of cell phones became an issue.

that was an alternative to that. if you're in japan, in japan a lot of families have one computer for the family. it would be the family computer. and you wouldn't want to open your myspace on that or share your photos or instant message and somebody else, like your parents, could find it. so you use cell phones instead. whereas in the us have pretty decent amount of hardware available in the schools. pretty decent amount of hardware available in libraries. and of course the individual family is pretty high. so a lot of cell phone usage can be used that way. there's also people have called this the size argument. i don't buy it. i think it's infrastructure. that the us is too big. it's easy

to roll out a cell phone coverage plan for holland, but for half of north america you know it's hard. i don't think it's a size problem, i think it's their infrastructure. russia, china have much better cell phone coverage and they're comparable sizes. in vermont, i suppose you found out when you were there, was it three years ago now? (ryan) yeah, just about. (bryan) vermount actually banned cell phone towers about five, six years ago. so we have coverage [ inaudible ]. in fact up state new york, i'm not sure about the policy, but there were fewer cell phone towers along the adirondack's. and during this winter a man died arguing

because he didn't have cell phone coverage. had an accident. he was badly hurt. called the cell phone, no coverage, [ inaudible ]. so there's a big push to add more towers. the adirondack's are beautiful. don't want to spoil that. it's odd that these are the kind of questions that were up eight, ten years ago. someone at the end of the talk asked am i optimistic about wireless mobile technology, i hate to say it, but one thing i'm optimistic about is the apple phone. i'm not an apple evangelist, i'm really nervous

about the iphone. what steve jobs celebrated. the patenting of it. and the apple herd said, yeah, oh, great another software [ inaudible ]. what really worries me is arguably the patent that he had wasn't for the phone, arguably for a screen. if he's patenting touch screen, that's not what we need for other devices, but if the apple iphone can tap into the ipod cold status, it might push american phones to be better as competitors come out. i have an mp3 player, it's not an ipod, it's really cheap and it works great. and the reason is because there's all this competition and people follow their lead. maybe we'll see

more of that in a couple years. that's one thing. we need that conversation of privacy and a better one. i don't see that on the horizon. i'm increasingly concerned for the assumption, you know david grin's book of the transparent society? no! he's a 98' science fiction writer. you ought to read that. in 1998 that there could be so many video games that...video games, imagine. back then when people thought of it, that there would be no more privacy. [ inaudible ] so let's just assume total transparency. not in a good way.

let's assume that everything you do can surveyed. well it's increasingly more and more of that is true. well then how do we attain our privacy? do we accept people [ inaudible ]. that's a social evolution waiting to happen. i've had students who wondered should talk about their sexuality on their blog. well we have a pretty open permissive society. what if they get a job in rural florida? privacy area is one that thrashing around for awhile. (cole) well do you think, we just asked students this question, how many of you are using privacy features in facebook?

and we saw that about seventy percent of our students are. so we've jumped from literally problem twelve months ago with people not getting privacy. students especially not getting privacy to now almost three quarters of them saying, i'm gonna make some of stuff a little harder for you to find. (bryan) i'm not all surprised. i think students have been thinking about this more than we give them credit for. and if they will publish stuff to live journal or zanga or facebook or myspace without, i think in part they're counting on people not following them. and that seems naive except that's not always naive.

i look at someone's live journal publication that's open and i'm thinking, well i could follow that. that's not hard. not every parent does that. every parent could, but now increasingly parents are. so nows time for privacy issues. (jim) we certainly had a incident here which i think turned the tide a little bit. we had a huge football victory over ohio state. the crowd rushed the field and as usual it was like, well we gotta get these guys off the field, some people were arrested. and what they did was that they took pictures of the people coming on to the field and people

posted it to facebook group say, i rushed the penn state field after the ohio state game, and it was actually used to identify people who did that. i mean it was sort of an admission of guilt. and i think some of the coverage of that particular story turned the tide a little bit in terms of getting them to think about privacy. getting the typical student to think about that. (bryan) it's quite an issue. i remember hearing about this case. and there are few other ones too. which school was it where the football team asked it's students not to use facebook or myspace?

because they were afraid of people posting things like that, but worse, or more dangerous. at the same time, i hope you contribute to the web. did you see the last slide i put up, the one with the vision? i mean, i think, it makes me want to celebrate that. if were gonna put content in itunes it's there by line. post something in angel [ inaudible ] worry about copyright we gotta keep behind so the teach act can cover that. i really worry that we're growing this shadow universe. and one of the reasons why media don't cover live journal, one of the reasons is because a

lots of the authors are women. and as the media stirs that blogs written by men, it's hard to get away from that. and also live journal was the first to pioneer blocking out pages. so all your friends could see it. and that doesn't show through google. and it's hard for a casual reporter to see. so you don't see as much. i hope you'll participate in the mobile web as much as possible. one thing that frustrates me about wikipedia discussions are they more or less how dangerous is the wikipedia? should i ban it totally or only part of the time? why don't just say, all of our education should jump on the wikipedia and make it better. edit it upwards. it's not hard.

and think about we have, how big is a faculty in the penn state system? (cole) five thousand. (bryan) five thousand, so imagine how many faculty there are in the united states. they're all credentialed. they logon through this process. well half of them just take five minutes a year. wouldn't that improve wikipedia. that's the kind of discussion we should be having. i think academia is still, aah, and no where near that. (cole) well i love the point of the sort of notion that we're building this shadow web, if you will, behind in the walled garden. but there's a couple things here, we work with faculty

and they tell us hey, i'll open my stuff up, but then when push comes to shove, they don't. but the other side of this, is the student content, but were seeing, is we're getting to roll a university wide blogging platform for example, we're probably a month away from this thing. where every faculty, staff, and student has a personal web space. (bryan) what engine are you using? (cole) moveable type and we made it work with our authentication. (bryan) so our you talking with the minnesota guys who did this? (cole) yeah, we talked with these guys. (bryan) well, great. break a leg. (cole) this is what's great about it is, that students can do this

and we see it as on a continuum with eportfolio. it's light on this side and then there's for blogging you can do some basic things. there's heavy end eportfolio. but can we get kids to come out of these other spaces? and that's the big question that i think we're wrestling with is so many of them are already in the facebook. they already have their myspace pages. they already are contributing in all the other places that they really own. you see what i'm saying. and then how do we draw them out and pull them into this architecture that we're providing? (bryan) there are a whole bunch of different ways. and one angle is that it's gotta be contrast. one thing that i keep running into

is, i was at an educause small college concession group meeting. and there's a big discussion about colleges that have the black web, black web ct, thinking about moodle, and there are all these great, brilliant conversations about the architecture, staffing, really good. and then someone asked, how many of you made a decision to do that or not to do it based on pedagogical reasons? one hand went up in like one hundred schools. do faculty blow this? do students know this? we're using blackboard. are you using it for pedagogical reasons? interesting question. so if you're gonna do this open

conversation or closed conversation or something in between like i don't know if you've seen this feature you can do with flickr, i'm sure you've seen this. where you can have some images visible to friends and some to [ inaudible ]. (cole) i posted a blog post about that about a month ago where i took my pictures from public then i moved them friends and family and then i invited people because my wife and i got a little nervous about the people looking at pictures of our five year old daughter. and i can't tell you, it was the most traffic post on my blog in two years. this open conversation about should i go public or private. (bryan) you had an open conversation? wow! (cole) in an open conversation and i got advice from literally dozens

and dozens of people on what to do. and stories about other people that have done this. (bryan) it's transparency. (cole) and it is. you know what it is, you make this decision to live a transparent life and then all of a sudden you take a step back from it, you say, is this the best thing. do my kids have a say? (jim) am i imposing this on my children. (cole) like saying to my five year old, just because i'm out there, you gotta be out there too. (bryan) so what's the legal basis of that for you and your five year old. for you as a teacher in the classroom what is your legal basis so student some who may be minors some of who are adults. and then you ask, then make an informed decision based, there is the privacy for your five year old,

i should ask the ninja? we're watching one in staff and someone took the ninja and they cut off his head and put one of our staff heads on, maybe that's offensive. but then there's also the pedagogical thing of will my need here for this one class? will this be enhanced by global potentially conversation or harmed? i don't think most people ask that question. i think that's the kind of question that you really have to talk about. because that is an architectural decision. it's a legal issue, copyright issue, and it's not predictable.

i had a conversation with two professors at one was a history professor, 17th century history, they are keen to make sure that doesn't get out to the world. i'm thinking, wow. i mean 17th century is pretty cool, but i didn't think it was that risky. the other one was teaching sexuality. they wanted to students to blog about their sex lives to the world. i would've expected the opposite. it's unpredictable. (cole) but don't you think that's where the conversation, at least in my mind, is starting to swing to. we're sort of through talking about these technologies for technologies sake and now it seems like people are starting to

think about these other things. (jim) how do we apply them? (bryan) i think there's a lot of, i think you're ahead of a lot of schools. (cole) i'm watching the blogosphere that i hang out in. it's the edublog space. so you know you're in my rss feed, and you know, stephen, and darcy and all these other people. and i'm sort of seeing this same theme emerge from a lot of people where people are taking a step back and reevaluating how we participate in this thing. and looking at how we be more responsible, but at the same time share. it's interesting, but it's almost becoming and i'm not all about o'reilly and his code of conduct and all those things, but

there has to be something there that's emerging. (bryan) this is where the [ inaudible ]. have you seen the [ inaudible ]? (cole) no, i didn't. (bryan) it was horrible. they used the word cute to describe [ inaudible ] three times. the had an action photo of the news picture closing in on her head. this is cnn. you know why i hate them? well it's the leading news agency for tv news america. possibly in the world and they suck. there's so much bad coverage. that makes it hard to have conversations. you're a professor, you're not intimate with it staff or the library and you want to talk about technology.

who's there? you're seven year old. maybe your colleague who's the same about you are you. your professional organization isn't gonna touch this. i mean, who? well cnn will through this at you with a chronicle. and that's a serious, serious problem. it's the only reason that we in nitle work so hard on every campus trying to improve the conversation if you can't. (cole) students self report that the first place that they go for help with anything, if it's making a movie, if it's understanding blogs, or how to use facebook, the first person they go to is a peer. and so that's another thing that we're really sort of interested, how do we make that connection happen?

(bryan) there is a study about flickr which is taking a look at how people search for flickrs. i have to find this story, i don't want to paraphrase it inaccurately. maybe it was the same header, if you were looking for images we were inclined to search their network first before they search the whole flickr verse. the interest in this network met with quite a similar process too. people would search for something. that pinging was important. (cole) so is that that trusted source? do we superimpose this thing that we create face to face on top of our social networks as well?

(bryan) i don't think it's superimposed. i think it's analog that can carry over. janet murray makes this argument that whenever you have this first stage where you take old practices and paste them onto new ones. and we've been doing that for awhile. (cole) so that's our second life conversation from this morning where what we're doing with second life right now, is were essentially just rebuilding this room. (bryan) so the harvard or yale law prof who built a copy of lecture hall. great, we got a bad pedagogical space and you spend money and time reproducing it. excellent, have some media coverage. (jim) i just had a conversation with one of our folks about this and

in regard to second life and he said, it reflects largely trying to get to grips with the new medium and the same way that in the early days of film, they set up a film camera and had theatrical production and they just filmed it and then they realized, hey, what if we change the angle. what if we splice things together. move the camera. what if we... (bryan) do you have[ inaudible ] book of new media, language of new media? (jim) no! (bryan) it's a great book. you should find it. especially if you like movies. it's a big focus on silent film. you get a real sense of how new media works. he's looking at vertog, and a, especially vertog

that we see him like breaking the laws of film. what happens if i have split screen? whoa, this is interesting. you look at mist, you look at myspace and it's like that. but then we have that second stage where you take the camera and move camera or splice in stuff. that's a little bit 2.0 in many ways. we have to get to that stage of thinking in those terms. where we can intrinsically deal with this. one of things that frustrates me about second life is that it has happened. one of the reason is because linden labs doesn't want you to think about history.

that we've been doing second life stuff for twenty years. there are projects just like this. adobe atmosphere, active worlds, [ inaudible ] nobody talks like julie dibble's breaking cyberspace. one of the most widely taught essays about cyberspace ever. 1993, they covered these same issues. we have to have that historical sense if we're gonna talk about this. so you want to talk virtual spaces, ok, how about, vroma, they built rome in the age of nero. 1990, i think. [ inaudible ] what did they learn?

no, it's brand new. you can't do that. for your profession instructional technology, academic computing, it's out of history have you seen the [ inaudible ] book? his computer book. the 40's he talked about. and it's hard. (cole) and it's hard for us. it's hard for people in our space and to take a step back and look backwards where were spending all this time looking out on the horizon and trying to turn our heads. (bryan) and look right here. making sure that this is on. we were just talking about the twitter feed breaking. (cole) yeah, it's hard. it's hard and it's

unreliable. and it is what it is. (bryan) there is a percentage in bring back history. it's really hard too. history isn't dead. [ inaudible ] that's the important point.